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NPR’s Ari Shapiro talks with author Garrard Conley about his new novel. All the world by your side.
Ari Shapiro, host:
Author Garrard Connelly has spent his life exploring the overlap between Christianity and sexuality. His best-selling memoir, The Erased Boy, was made into a film in 2018 about undergoing conversion therapy.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE MOVIE “The Erased Boy”)
LUCAS HEDGES: (As Jared Eamonns) Chloe and I broke up. We broke up because I think that’s the truth about me. God save me. I think about men.
SHAPIRO: His new book deals with a similar theme from a completely different angle. All The World Beside is his novel set in the 1700s. A story of forbidden love between two married men, set in a small town in Massachusetts. Garrard Conley, welcome to All Things Considered.
Garrard Conley: Thank you so much for having me.
SHAPIRO: The two men at the center of this story, Nathaniel and Arthur, are more than just townspeople. They are pillars of the community. Nathaniel is the pastor who founded the town. Arthur is a doctor. Why did you choose to build this story around such a prominent character?
Conley: Yeah, I mean, increasing the stakes is always good for the story. But the real reason is that I’ve been drawn to this idea of leadership for a long time. As you know, my father is a Baptist missionary. He directs about 200 people every Sunday, and I’ve always watched with interest as he carries that burden. I always wondered how he did it and I guess that’s probably where the idea came from.
SHAPIRO: So how much of your father’s influence is reflected in the character of Nathaniel?
Conley: Well, I think Nathaniel has a lot of his father in him. Nathaniel is very stubborn, but he is also very good. And he’s very contradictory about what he believes. So a big part of this novel is actually about the challenge between the union of head and heart. I also think that religion and sexuality are often placed in a dichotomy of having to do the right thing. we should do the right thing. But what are we really feeling? And they don’t have to be in conflict.
SHAPIRO: Do you think your father sees this as some sort of honor, a tribute or a paean to him, or what – I don’t know. If he had read the book, how did he react?
Conley: Well, he says he never read my first book…
SHAPIRO: Wow.
CONLEY: …I don’t believe that at all.
SHAPIRO: Just to remind everyone, this was a memoir…
Conley: Yeah.
SHAPIRO: …about your upbringing within this very conservative Christian tradition.
Conley: Mm-hmm. And, you know, my father, a preacher, sent me to conversion therapy, but he claims he’s never read the book. I don’t think that’s true. We joke about it. It may sound strange, but we have struggled for many years. And one of the things he said a while ago was, “Hey, when are you going to write a book that my congregation can read?” And I said to him, “I already know.” You can always read a book, which is banned in many states, unless it is banned. But you know, I think it’s hard for him to read that. And I want him to read this book because it is written in a Christian spirit, honesty, compassion and forgiveness.
SHAPIRO: And you’re obviously very familiar with the language of Christianity and the Bible. And while you may have given up the details of your upbringing, the spirit of that tradition is woven into this book very thoroughly. I mean, there are Bible passages that make you wonder why they chose certain passages for certain scenes. Can you give me an example?
Conley: Yeah. There are several Bible verses early on in the book, most of which refer to dying on the vine, and are a bit of foreshadowing for many of the characters. But I inserted this passage in the middle of the book, when the two men explore each other a little more, so you can read it right away.
SHAPIRO: Yeah. Yeah.
Conley: It’s about Jonathan and David…
SHAPIRO: Yeah, this is like, if you want a gay Bible verse, you go to Jonathan and David. Even I know that.
Conley: I know. It’s a little on the nose.
SHAPIRO: It’s a little on the nose.
Conley: But it felt appropriate. I felt it was appropriate. Because these men are thinking, you know, what’s the most obvious example? I mean, history has the Greeks, but if you look at the Bible, you have Jonathan and David. And one of the characters says to the preacher: “My brother Jonathan, I am saddened for you. You were so happy for me. Your love for me was greater than the love of a woman.”
So it seems very clear that these two men are discussing love in a way that goes beyond heterosexuality. And in fact, in that scene, Nathaniel, our preacher, does not agree with the interpretation given to him by his lover. He says we shouldn’t look for ourselves that way in the Bible. And much of the way I was taught to read the Bible ignored some of the really obvious things that spoke to me. Take a look at an incredibly erotic book called “Song of Solomon.” Every time sensuality enters the Bible, people either try to ignore it or the moment of conflict between head and heart occurs again.
SHAPIRO: Yeah.
CONLEY: And when these two discuss Bible verses, it’s very similar to the conversations I’ve had with queer people who are dealing with their faith in this way.
SHAPIRO: But this is very interesting. Because just as the characters of the 1700s searched for traces of people like them in the Bible, so too do you today search for traces of people like you in his 1700s. Because I went there.
Conley: Yes. I mean, it was very challenging. Actually, her husband gave me a challenge, and one day he said, “Why don’t you write about queer Puritans?” Return to the source of everything. And I thought that was insane. I was like, “Yes, there is.”
SHAPIRO: (Laughter) Why did you think that was insane?
Conley: Well, I just thought – as a writer, you realize how much work that is, right? So I was thinking, how can we understand how people back then spoke to each other in a natural way?
SHAPIRO: So this book deals with similar themes as your memoir, but in a very different way. It’s a novel. The setting is the 1700s. Did writing these characters and this plot help you understand your own story in any way?
Conley: Oh, yeah. So with “Boy Erased,” it was actually clearly autobiographical. It was very real. But to me this book feels more autobiographical because it’s trying to preserve some of the people who are still alive through memoir, right? But in fiction, you can actually dive into dangerous territory and hide behind that screen. So there’s a lot of very autobiographical discussion in this book. You know, the lovers’ conversation in the middle of the book could be almost exactly like the word-for-word conversations I’ve had with people in real life. And of course…
SHAPIRO: So we’re leaving society and…
Conley: Yeah.
SHAPIRO: …Is it our culture of being with each other, or are we confining ourselves within the limitations that have been given to us?
Conley: Yeah. And also, how do we see ourselves in Christianity? Do we really see ourselves there? And I think these are questions that I’ve always wrestled with. It allowed me to delve deeper into the thoughts of many of these characters than I ever wanted to do in my own life.
SHAPIRO: Hmm. Do you still consider yourself a Christian?
Conley: Well, I think I’m still on my faith journey. For me, writing this book helped me regain a lot of my faith. Some of my friends were very worried about the way I spoke. Because you’ll never be able to get away from this book. Just the knowledge, the memorization, of all these Bible verses that I casually included in the book. I have them memorized. As you know, this faith has become a part of my life. But I believe there is a broader perspective. Well, I guess I’ll probably always keep my faith. Perhaps I will always believe that there is something, but it is no longer just within Christianity.
SHAPIRO: Garrard Conley’s new novel is “All The World Beside.” Thank you very much.
Conley: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF SHAWN ANGUS WATSON’S “WALTZ IN SWEATER”)
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